Post by Admin on Oct 15, 2012 10:36:12 GMT -8
Biblical Errancy
GOD SANCTIONS SLAVERY in direct contradiction to 2 Cor. 3:17, which says, "Where the spirit of the Lord is there is liberty." Key statements in this regard are the following:
•"Then thou shalt take an awl, and thrust it through his ear unto the door, and he shall be thy servant (Read slave) forever. And also unto thy maidservant thou shalt do likewise" (Deut. 15:17).
•"Bid slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect; they are not to be refractory, nor to pilfer, but to show entire and true fidelity, so that in everything they may adorn the doctrine of God" (Titus 2:9).
•"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men, because you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free" (Eph. 6:5-7).
•"Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God. But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps" (1 Peter 2:18-21).
•"Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence of the Lord. Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men, since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving" (Col. 3:22-24).
•"All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God's name and our teaching may not be slandered. Those who have believing masters are not to show less respect for them because they are brothers. Instead, they are to serve them even better, because those who benefit from their service are believers, and dear to them. These are the things you are to teach and urge on them" (1 Tim. 6:1-2).
GOD DEGRADES DEFORMED PEOPLE: In Lev. 21:16-23 God said to Moses, "Say to Aaron: 'For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God. No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; no man with a crippled foot or hand, or who is hunchbacked or dwarfed, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles. No descendant of Aaron the priest who has any defect is to come near to present the offerings made to the Lord by fire. He has a defect.... because of this defect, he must not go near the curtain or approach the altar, and so desecrate my sanctuary...." (Lev. 21:16:23).
GOD PUNISHES BASTARDS FOR BEING ILLEGITIMATE: Deut. 23:2 says, "A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the Lord."
GOD PUNISHES MANY FOR THE ACTS OF ONE: "...for the Lord had closed up every womb in Abimelech's household because of Abraham's wife Sarah" (Gen. 20:18). "When David saw the angel who was striking down the people, he said to the Lord, 'I am the one who has sinned and done wrong. These are but sheep. What have they done? Let your hand fall upon me and my family" (2 Sam. 24:17). "To the woman he said, 'I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children" (Gen. 3:16). Also note Joshua 7:24-26.
GOD PUNISHES CHILDREN FOR THEIR FATHERS' SINS: "...visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation" (Ex. 34:7). "...for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the 3rd and 4th generation of them that hate me...." (Ex. 20:5, Deut. 5:9). "It came to pass, that at midnight the Lord smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle" (Ex. 12:29). See also: Deut. 23:2, Num. 14:33, Gen. 17:14, and Gen. 9:22-25.
GOD PREVENTS PEOPLE FROM HEARING HIS WORDS: "Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed" (Isa. 6:10). "So you see God is kind to some just because he wants to be, and he makes some refuse to listen" (Rom. 9:18). "This is why I speak to them in parables: Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving" (Matt. 13:13-14). See also: John 12:39-40, Mark 4:10-12, and Luke 8:9-10.
GOD SUPPORTS HUMAN SACRIFICE: Ex. 22:29-30 says, "Do not hold back offerings from your granaries or your vats. You must give me the firstborn of your sons. Do the same with your cattle and your sheep. Let them stay with their mothers for 7 days, but give them to me on the 8th day." And Lev. 27:28-29 says, "Nothing that a man owns and devotes to the Lord--whether man or animal or family land--may be sold or redeemed; everything so devoted is most holy to the Lord. No person devoted to destruction may be ransomed; he must be put to death." He also permitted human sacrifice according to Ezek. 20:26, which says, "I let them become defiled through their gifts--the sacrifice of every firstborn--that I might fill them with horror so they would know that I am the Lord."
GOD ORDERS CANNIBALISM: Lev. 26:29 says, "Ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughter shall ye eat." Jer. 19:9 says, "I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and daughters, and they will eat one another's flesh during the stress of the siege imposed on them by the enemies who seek their lives." Ezek. 5:10 says, "In your midst fathers will eat their children, and children will eat their fathers. I will inflict punishment on you and will scatter all your survivors to the winds." Isaiah 49:26 says, "I will make your oppressors eat their own flesh; they will be drunk on their own blood, as with wine...." And in John 6:53-54 Jesus says, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life...."
(TO BE CONTINUED NEXT MONTH)
Letter #508 from JM of Sullivan, Missouri Continues from Last Month (Part b)(Point #2 in our pamphlet was: Why are we being punished for Adam's sin? After all, he ate the forbidden fruit, we didn't. It is his problem, not ours, especially in light of Deut. 24:16, which says the children shall not be punished for the sins of their fathers.)
Jerry's Defense: Mr. McKinsey thinks that the Bible teaches that we are punished because of Adam's sin. There is not one single verse in all of Holy writ that even implies such a thing. 1 Cor. 15:22 says, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive." This falls into the category of one not reading exactly what the writer actually said. This says that in Adam, all die. It says nothing about being punished because of what Adam did. Adam (and Eve) sinned, thereby allowing sin to come into the world. Two kinds of death came into the world with their act: Spiritual and physical death. However, anyone who is punished will be punished for his own sin. Ezekiel 18:20 says, "The soul that sins, it shall die." One must sin in order to be punished for sin. One thing that most people from every walk of life seem to misunderstand is the difference between the consequences of sin and the punishment for sin.... Man suffers the consequence of what Adam and Eve did, but they are not punished for that sin."
Editor's Response to Letter #508 (Part b) Your answer to this query is almost as vacuous as your prior response, JM. You say there is not one single verse in all of Holy writ that teaches we are punished for Adam's sin. You can't be serious. As we noted earlier, Rom. 5:12 says, "...so death passed upon all men, for that ALL HAVE SINNED." We are deemed sinners and die for what Adam did and that isn't punishment? Aren't sinners punished? The 18th verse says, "...as by the offense of one JUDGEMENT came upon all men to condemnation." We are condemned for what Adam did and that isn't punishment? Judgement doesn't entail punishment? The 19th verse says, "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners" and that isn't punishment? You quote 1 Cor. 15:22, which says that we all died because of what Adam did and then allege that we are not being punished as a result. How silly! Of course we are. We are paying the penalty for what he did. If there is anyone who is not reading the script closely, it is you. Adam and Eve didn't just "allow" sin to come into the world; they caused it and they caused it to rain down on everyone. Without them it would never have appeared. Because of them, according to Christian theology, everyone must now take the affirmative act of accepting Jesus as his savior. Those who do not are doomed. If Adam and Eve had not disobeyed God, sin would not even be an option today; the world would be a perfect place, and all men would be saved. Because of them, everyone sinned, not just Adam and Eve, and, thus, everyone is a sinner. And because everyone is a sinner, we are all doomed unless corrective measures are taken. You falsely state that "one must sin in order to be punished for sin" and then allege that "anyone who is punished will be punished for his own sin" when anyone reasonably well acquainted with Christian theology knows that we are sinners condemned to hell at the moment of conception, if not before, and sinful acts are not required. If you never do anything wrong in your entire existence, you are still condemned to hell because of what Adam and Eve did. In fact, no amount of good deeds will save you; your only salvation is through the acceptance of Jesus. As part of your defense, you quote Ezekiel 18:20, which says, "The soul that sins, it shall die" when you had already quoted 1 Cor. 15:22, which said that all died because of what Adam did, and as we have already noted, Rom. 5:12 says, "death passed upon all men." According to the latter verses you die when you first come into existence, not when you later commit a sinful act. By quoting Ezekiel all you did was highlight a biblical contradiction regarding when death occurs. Ezekiel says death appears when you first sin, while other verses say it emerges the moment you are created.
And finally, your attempt to draw a distinction between "consequences" and "punishment" is stillborn because they are two sides of the same coin. They don't oppose but complement one another. As a consequence of what Adam did, mankind is punished. A conscious judgment was made by a supreme being that everyone should be adversely affected because of the deeds of one. That's a judgement in which punishment is being administered, my friend. If what had occurred had been merely the result of blind, impersonal natural forces, such as that dispensed by a hurricane or an earthquake, then your argument might have some merit. People suffer the consequences of natural disasters, but they are not punished. The term is inapplicable. But that is not the Original Sin situation by any means.
Letter #508 Continues (Part c) (Point #3 in our pamphlet was: God created Adam so he must have been perfect. How, then, could he have sinned? Regardless of how much free will he had, if he chose to sin he wasn't perfect.")
Jerry's Defense: Again Mr. McKinsey did not consider the totality of Biblical teaching concerning the matter. There are two things wrong with McKinsey's objection: [1] He thinks that if God created something that he could only make it so perfect that it could never be corrupted. [2] He does not understand the "free moral agency" of man.
Why would God have to make a thing so perfect that it could never be corrupted? Does he mean that God could not have made the earth because it has become polluted and corrupted? God made the tobacco leaf, but he did not make it to be smoked and chewed. God made opium, but certainly not so man could abuse it and make illegal drugs out of it.... What rule of logic can he employ to show that if a person sins, that he was never perfect in the first place....
Editor's Response to Letter #508 (Part c) You don't have a real grasp of the problem, JM. God is perfect by definition. Thus everything God is and does is perfect. God created man; therefore man must be perfect and couldn't sin. Your "free agency" means nothing. If man chose to sin, then that proves he was not perfect. But he had to have been perfect because God created him; so how could he have sinned? How could a perfect being create something less than perfect? According to you, we have a perfect being that is doing something less than perfect, which is contradictory. If I tell you I am perfect and immediately sin, that is excellent proof I lied. What evidence could be more conclusive?
You say, Does that mean God could not have made the earth because it has become polluted and corrupted? No! Under your theology, God could have made the earth perfect. That's no problem. But it was polluted by man and that is a problem. How could man have chosen to do that which is imperfect when he was created perfect by God. So we return to the original problem.
Your question is also beset by another problem. We are primarily dealing with morality and how do you morally corrupt something that is not alive. Morality is not applicable to non-living matter. But even if pollution or corruption did involve morality, they are brought about by man's acts and couldn't occur on their own. So we again return to our original question: How could that which was created perfect--man--sin or corrupt?
You ask what rule of logic I can employ to show that if a person sins, that he was never perfect in the first place? The rule is quite simple. If he was created perfect but chose to sin or corrupt, he was not created perfect to start with. If he was perfect at no time would he choose to be imperfect because that which is perfect could never choose to be imperfect. If it chose to be imperfect, then it proved it wasn't perfect to begin with. Don't you understand that the very act of choosing the imperfect proves the "perfect" is not perfect but imperfect? Why is that so hard to comprehend? By definition everything the perfect does must be perfect. So it can't make an imperfect choice.
Letter #508 Continues (Part d) McKinsey needs to prove that a perfect man cannot sin. It would be utterly impossible for a man (who is free to choose) not to be able to choose the wrong. If he is allowed to choose, then he must be able to make the wrong choice, otherwise he is not free to choose. If the only choice he has is the right choice, then he has no choice at all. So this argument falls.
Editor's Response to Letter #508 (Part d) Proving a perfect man cannot sin is quite simple, JM. As I said, by definition he can't sin. If he sinned, then he proved he wasn't perfect. The essence of the argument between us is this: You say man was created perfect but chose to sin and thus became imperfect. I say that is impossible. If he was perfect, he couldn't have chosen to be imperfect, because if he did, that would prove he was not perfect to begin with. No perfect being can choose to do that which is imperfect, i.e., sin. You need to realize that when you bring "perfection" in the door, you throw "free choice" out the window. The only choice he has is the right choice; that is why he has no option at all, and that's why your argument collapses. And that is also why the whole idea of a "perfect man" is ridiculous from the outset.
(To Be Continued)
LETTERS TO THE EDITOR
Letter #517 from GN of Phoenix, Arizona Dear Dennis.
I'm enclosing a Christian newsletter that came to my house edited and published by John A. Thought you would enjoy the contents along with my reply. Please note its caption: How to Beat the Atheist in a Debate. However, the article does not really tell you how to beat an atheist in debate; all it contains is a character assassination of atheist people. I would sure like to challenge this joker to debate YOU. If this is the best he can do, he wouldn't even be able to go one round. I found his comments to be insulting and humorous all at the same time. It's hard to imagine that an educated person could make such ludicrous statements. Evidently history is not one of his strong points.
What follows is the response GN sent to John A:
Dear Mr. A: ...I must take exception to the article about atheists. My mother and father were both atheists and never could there be found a more moral people. They were not moral because they were afraid of a punishing God; they were moral because it was in their heart to be so. They taught me not to lie, not to steal, to value truth, never to cheat, to be ambitious. My father was a hard worker and a loyal friend. My mother was a saint, and still is.
I think the article was quite misleading when you consider that our prisons are full of professed Christians. Possibly you are not aware of the part that Christians played during the Crusades and the Inquisition, all quite pious and all very immoral.
Insofar as morality is concerned I would pit my dear father against any of the biblical holy men. My father never murdered anyone such as David and Moses did; my Dad was faithful to his one and only wife and did not imitate the adultery and polygamy of both King David and Solomon. My Dad did not shack up with several women such as the patriarch Jacob, nor did he murder innocent men, women and children such as Judah and Levi, not did he sell his brother into slavery such as the sons of Israel. No, my friend, it is not the atheist who is immoral; it is very much the religious fanatics.
You mentioned the killing of 6 million Jews in the article. According to history, Hitler was a devout Catholic and the people of Germany were very much Christian, not atheist. If we look to the Bible for our ethics and morality we will come up short of civilized. What kind of morality and ethics is it when God's so called "chosen people" were commanded to enter Canaan and kill every man, woman, and child (genocide) and rob them of their land because they were not of the religion of the Jews? What kind of morality is it to stone men and women for adultery except when it is David and Bathsheba? What kind of morality is being taught when it is all right to kill and maim others in the name of God and religion? If Jimmy Swaggart had as many wives and concubines as Solomon, he would never have been tempted to immorality. How "righteous" was Lot when he was willing to offer his virgin daughters to be molested and raped by the wicked men of Sodom, and later, supposedly in a drunken stupor had relations with them causing their pregnancy? My atheist father had far higher standards than that. He would have died before handing my sister and me over to such a fate, and certainly, not even in a drunken stupor, would he have behaved indecently toward either one of us.
Yes, you are right, the atheist has his opinion to tell him what is right and wrong, and I'll be truthful with you, their morality far outshines the morality in holy writ.
I can only think of a few scriptures that contain any morality at all and they are in the New Testament. Jesus made some moral statements but they were no more moral than statements made by leaders of various pagan religions. Most religions teach you that it is wrong to steal, to murder, to lie, to cheat. However, among the moral statements of Jesus there are the immoral ones, such as "hating your mother and father," and encouraging his followers not to work but to let God clothe and feed them, not to mention his false prophecies about returning to those people who had put their trust in him. They are dead and gone and did not live to see his return as he promised.
It is quite egotistical to elevate the Christian philosophy. Our Christian nation was involved in two world wars and several immoral wars such as Korea and Vietnam. Our Christian immorality was further evidenced by the dropping of the atom bomb on innocent women and children in Japan. Christians were responsible for the slaughter of 6 million Jews. Our Christian nation is ravaged by AIDS, hungry and homeless children are on the increase daily, the mentally ill are wandering the streets, many of our veterans are homeless, our T.V.'s and movies are filled with filth and immorality, our politicians (most of them Christians) are corrupt and greedy for wealth and power, and our religious leaders are full of hypocrisy and lust after women and money.
Before writing another condemning article about a group of people that you know nothing about, I would suggest that you help get the "Christian" house in order.
Letter #518 from RM of Red Deer Alberta, Canada Dear Dennis. A christian couple I spoke to recently are no longer fundamentalists. They now have a more liberal paradigm. I believe that I am starting to get through to them, but they are not fully converted. Obviously, since they have been brainwashed for so many years, "deprogramming" them will take some time. The point is, I really do care for them. While I have a lot of fun disproving the bible's validity, genuine concern for the people I am reaching is, especially to them, an essential requirement. Every christian I have spoken to thus far has never been able to accuse me of insincerity. They have all assented to the integrity with which I present my arguments affirmatively.
At the same time, destroying false hope in the bible is a priority. The couple that is now becoming more liberal in their view, thanks to my personal efforts and some of the BE material, is a fine example. They quoted a host of scriptures to prove that God knew everything and predestined everything accordingly. That everyone has to go either to heaven or to hell, without having a say in the matter, was their sincere conviction.... Since no one can resist God's will (Rom. 9:18-19), man has no choice in the matter...and that's that.
In brief, they said that God is God from eternity to eternity (Ps. 90:2). According to His foreknowledge God Predestined all things according to His will.... No one can resist his will...and since God is omniscient...and is never given to change...there will be no exceptions where eternal salvation and damnation are concerned. Everything has been determined by God.
Well, I could hardly believe my luck. Here was my chance to blast both the bible and Calvinism at the same time. First, I pointed out that people have indeed resisted God in the bible. For example, Acts 7:51 says, "...ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye." Since they were already Trinitarians there was no need to cross-reference the OT to prove that the "Holy Ghost" referred to here is God.... In Luke 7:30, it states that, "...the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God for themselves.".... The point is that God's will is often resisted and He does not always get his way. The fun really begins when Jer. 3:7 is quoted because the will, the prophetic ability, and the omniscience of God all start to fall apart. As this verse states: "I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not.... Thus, Israel resisted God's command to "return" to Him.
Interestingly enough, most translations...reveal here God's ignorance about the future. As the RSV puts it: "I, God, thought after she had done all this she will return to me; but she did not return." Clearly, God thought wrong. This was shocking to the couple I was speaking to and they retreated to the KJV for safety. But I wasn't finished yet. Pointing to Jer. 3:19b-20 I demonstrated that even God admits to not knowing everything.... Horrors! There's more, still! God's omniscience is lacking in Gen. 18:21, 22:12, Deut. 8:2, 13:3, Hosea 6:4 and 2 Chron. 32:31. These verses are pointed out in BE, my favorite magazine.
At this point, all that was needed was an assault on the contradictory resurrection accounts and this couple, although not made into complete skeptics, made a strong turn away from fundamentalism and its inerrancy hogwash. Even if they are still clinging to christianity, I know they will never be quite the same as when they first locked horns with me and BE. While I have always (since leaving christianity) been able to win the argument with christians on my own, BE has made it all the more easy to win it quickly and completely. Thanks for all the support, Dennis. It's only a matter of time before many christians begin to "wake up and smell the Scriptures."
In every debate that I enter there is one verse that I bring up before, during, and after to drive home the point I am trying to make: "If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?" This is Psalm 11:3, and it is a good argument when one considers that the bible is the foundation of the christian faith. So, "if the bible be destroyed, what can the fundamentalists do?" Only two things: 1. Become a liberal or 2. Drop the subject completely. While (2) is the best option (1) is a good start. I intend, ultimately to push for number (2) where this couple is concerned. I think they're still in shock from the last meeting, but getting to number (1) is still a plus in my book. All the best to you and BE.
Editor's Response to Letter #518 Dear RM. Good job and keep it up. As I have said so often, we need far more people putting forth the same kind of effort. My only reservation lies in your use of Psalm 11:3 which, by implication, refers to believers as righteous. If there is anything millions of believers are not, it is righteous. Perverts and adulterers such as Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Bakker attest to that.
Issue #118 October 1992
GOD (Part 4),
GOD (Part 4),
GOD SANCTIONS SLAVERY in direct contradiction to 2 Cor. 3:17, which says, "Where the spirit of the Lord is there is liberty." Key statements in this regard are the following:
•"Then thou shalt take an awl, and thrust it through his ear unto the door, and he shall be thy servant (Read slave) forever. And also unto thy maidservant thou shalt do likewise" (Deut. 15:17).
•"Bid slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect; they are not to be refractory, nor to pilfer, but to show entire and true fidelity, so that in everything they may adorn the doctrine of God" (Titus 2:9).
•"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men, because you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free" (Eph. 6:5-7).
•"Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God. But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps" (1 Peter 2:18-21).
•"Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence of the Lord. Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men, since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving" (Col. 3:22-24).
•"All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God's name and our teaching may not be slandered. Those who have believing masters are not to show less respect for them because they are brothers. Instead, they are to serve them even better, because those who benefit from their service are believers, and dear to them. These are the things you are to teach and urge on them" (1 Tim. 6:1-2).
GOD DEGRADES DEFORMED PEOPLE: In Lev. 21:16-23 God said to Moses, "Say to Aaron: 'For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God. No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; no man with a crippled foot or hand, or who is hunchbacked or dwarfed, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles. No descendant of Aaron the priest who has any defect is to come near to present the offerings made to the Lord by fire. He has a defect.... because of this defect, he must not go near the curtain or approach the altar, and so desecrate my sanctuary...." (Lev. 21:16:23).
GOD PUNISHES BASTARDS FOR BEING ILLEGITIMATE: Deut. 23:2 says, "A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the Lord."
GOD PUNISHES MANY FOR THE ACTS OF ONE: "...for the Lord had closed up every womb in Abimelech's household because of Abraham's wife Sarah" (Gen. 20:18). "When David saw the angel who was striking down the people, he said to the Lord, 'I am the one who has sinned and done wrong. These are but sheep. What have they done? Let your hand fall upon me and my family" (2 Sam. 24:17). "To the woman he said, 'I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children" (Gen. 3:16). Also note Joshua 7:24-26.
GOD PUNISHES CHILDREN FOR THEIR FATHERS' SINS: "...visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation" (Ex. 34:7). "...for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the 3rd and 4th generation of them that hate me...." (Ex. 20:5, Deut. 5:9). "It came to pass, that at midnight the Lord smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle" (Ex. 12:29). See also: Deut. 23:2, Num. 14:33, Gen. 17:14, and Gen. 9:22-25.
GOD PREVENTS PEOPLE FROM HEARING HIS WORDS: "Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed" (Isa. 6:10). "So you see God is kind to some just because he wants to be, and he makes some refuse to listen" (Rom. 9:18). "This is why I speak to them in parables: Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving" (Matt. 13:13-14). See also: John 12:39-40, Mark 4:10-12, and Luke 8:9-10.
GOD SUPPORTS HUMAN SACRIFICE: Ex. 22:29-30 says, "Do not hold back offerings from your granaries or your vats. You must give me the firstborn of your sons. Do the same with your cattle and your sheep. Let them stay with their mothers for 7 days, but give them to me on the 8th day." And Lev. 27:28-29 says, "Nothing that a man owns and devotes to the Lord--whether man or animal or family land--may be sold or redeemed; everything so devoted is most holy to the Lord. No person devoted to destruction may be ransomed; he must be put to death." He also permitted human sacrifice according to Ezek. 20:26, which says, "I let them become defiled through their gifts--the sacrifice of every firstborn--that I might fill them with horror so they would know that I am the Lord."
GOD ORDERS CANNIBALISM: Lev. 26:29 says, "Ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughter shall ye eat." Jer. 19:9 says, "I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and daughters, and they will eat one another's flesh during the stress of the siege imposed on them by the enemies who seek their lives." Ezek. 5:10 says, "In your midst fathers will eat their children, and children will eat their fathers. I will inflict punishment on you and will scatter all your survivors to the winds." Isaiah 49:26 says, "I will make your oppressors eat their own flesh; they will be drunk on their own blood, as with wine...." And in John 6:53-54 Jesus says, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life...."
(TO BE CONTINUED NEXT MONTH)
DIALOGUE AND DEBATE
Letter #508 from JM of Sullivan, Missouri Continues from Last Month (Part b)(Point #2 in our pamphlet was: Why are we being punished for Adam's sin? After all, he ate the forbidden fruit, we didn't. It is his problem, not ours, especially in light of Deut. 24:16, which says the children shall not be punished for the sins of their fathers.)
Jerry's Defense: Mr. McKinsey thinks that the Bible teaches that we are punished because of Adam's sin. There is not one single verse in all of Holy writ that even implies such a thing. 1 Cor. 15:22 says, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive." This falls into the category of one not reading exactly what the writer actually said. This says that in Adam, all die. It says nothing about being punished because of what Adam did. Adam (and Eve) sinned, thereby allowing sin to come into the world. Two kinds of death came into the world with their act: Spiritual and physical death. However, anyone who is punished will be punished for his own sin. Ezekiel 18:20 says, "The soul that sins, it shall die." One must sin in order to be punished for sin. One thing that most people from every walk of life seem to misunderstand is the difference between the consequences of sin and the punishment for sin.... Man suffers the consequence of what Adam and Eve did, but they are not punished for that sin."
Editor's Response to Letter #508 (Part b) Your answer to this query is almost as vacuous as your prior response, JM. You say there is not one single verse in all of Holy writ that teaches we are punished for Adam's sin. You can't be serious. As we noted earlier, Rom. 5:12 says, "...so death passed upon all men, for that ALL HAVE SINNED." We are deemed sinners and die for what Adam did and that isn't punishment? Aren't sinners punished? The 18th verse says, "...as by the offense of one JUDGEMENT came upon all men to condemnation." We are condemned for what Adam did and that isn't punishment? Judgement doesn't entail punishment? The 19th verse says, "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners" and that isn't punishment? You quote 1 Cor. 15:22, which says that we all died because of what Adam did and then allege that we are not being punished as a result. How silly! Of course we are. We are paying the penalty for what he did. If there is anyone who is not reading the script closely, it is you. Adam and Eve didn't just "allow" sin to come into the world; they caused it and they caused it to rain down on everyone. Without them it would never have appeared. Because of them, according to Christian theology, everyone must now take the affirmative act of accepting Jesus as his savior. Those who do not are doomed. If Adam and Eve had not disobeyed God, sin would not even be an option today; the world would be a perfect place, and all men would be saved. Because of them, everyone sinned, not just Adam and Eve, and, thus, everyone is a sinner. And because everyone is a sinner, we are all doomed unless corrective measures are taken. You falsely state that "one must sin in order to be punished for sin" and then allege that "anyone who is punished will be punished for his own sin" when anyone reasonably well acquainted with Christian theology knows that we are sinners condemned to hell at the moment of conception, if not before, and sinful acts are not required. If you never do anything wrong in your entire existence, you are still condemned to hell because of what Adam and Eve did. In fact, no amount of good deeds will save you; your only salvation is through the acceptance of Jesus. As part of your defense, you quote Ezekiel 18:20, which says, "The soul that sins, it shall die" when you had already quoted 1 Cor. 15:22, which said that all died because of what Adam did, and as we have already noted, Rom. 5:12 says, "death passed upon all men." According to the latter verses you die when you first come into existence, not when you later commit a sinful act. By quoting Ezekiel all you did was highlight a biblical contradiction regarding when death occurs. Ezekiel says death appears when you first sin, while other verses say it emerges the moment you are created.
And finally, your attempt to draw a distinction between "consequences" and "punishment" is stillborn because they are two sides of the same coin. They don't oppose but complement one another. As a consequence of what Adam did, mankind is punished. A conscious judgment was made by a supreme being that everyone should be adversely affected because of the deeds of one. That's a judgement in which punishment is being administered, my friend. If what had occurred had been merely the result of blind, impersonal natural forces, such as that dispensed by a hurricane or an earthquake, then your argument might have some merit. People suffer the consequences of natural disasters, but they are not punished. The term is inapplicable. But that is not the Original Sin situation by any means.
Letter #508 Continues (Part c) (Point #3 in our pamphlet was: God created Adam so he must have been perfect. How, then, could he have sinned? Regardless of how much free will he had, if he chose to sin he wasn't perfect.")
Jerry's Defense: Again Mr. McKinsey did not consider the totality of Biblical teaching concerning the matter. There are two things wrong with McKinsey's objection: [1] He thinks that if God created something that he could only make it so perfect that it could never be corrupted. [2] He does not understand the "free moral agency" of man.
Why would God have to make a thing so perfect that it could never be corrupted? Does he mean that God could not have made the earth because it has become polluted and corrupted? God made the tobacco leaf, but he did not make it to be smoked and chewed. God made opium, but certainly not so man could abuse it and make illegal drugs out of it.... What rule of logic can he employ to show that if a person sins, that he was never perfect in the first place....
Editor's Response to Letter #508 (Part c) You don't have a real grasp of the problem, JM. God is perfect by definition. Thus everything God is and does is perfect. God created man; therefore man must be perfect and couldn't sin. Your "free agency" means nothing. If man chose to sin, then that proves he was not perfect. But he had to have been perfect because God created him; so how could he have sinned? How could a perfect being create something less than perfect? According to you, we have a perfect being that is doing something less than perfect, which is contradictory. If I tell you I am perfect and immediately sin, that is excellent proof I lied. What evidence could be more conclusive?
You say, Does that mean God could not have made the earth because it has become polluted and corrupted? No! Under your theology, God could have made the earth perfect. That's no problem. But it was polluted by man and that is a problem. How could man have chosen to do that which is imperfect when he was created perfect by God. So we return to the original problem.
Your question is also beset by another problem. We are primarily dealing with morality and how do you morally corrupt something that is not alive. Morality is not applicable to non-living matter. But even if pollution or corruption did involve morality, they are brought about by man's acts and couldn't occur on their own. So we again return to our original question: How could that which was created perfect--man--sin or corrupt?
You ask what rule of logic I can employ to show that if a person sins, that he was never perfect in the first place? The rule is quite simple. If he was created perfect but chose to sin or corrupt, he was not created perfect to start with. If he was perfect at no time would he choose to be imperfect because that which is perfect could never choose to be imperfect. If it chose to be imperfect, then it proved it wasn't perfect to begin with. Don't you understand that the very act of choosing the imperfect proves the "perfect" is not perfect but imperfect? Why is that so hard to comprehend? By definition everything the perfect does must be perfect. So it can't make an imperfect choice.
Letter #508 Continues (Part d) McKinsey needs to prove that a perfect man cannot sin. It would be utterly impossible for a man (who is free to choose) not to be able to choose the wrong. If he is allowed to choose, then he must be able to make the wrong choice, otherwise he is not free to choose. If the only choice he has is the right choice, then he has no choice at all. So this argument falls.
Editor's Response to Letter #508 (Part d) Proving a perfect man cannot sin is quite simple, JM. As I said, by definition he can't sin. If he sinned, then he proved he wasn't perfect. The essence of the argument between us is this: You say man was created perfect but chose to sin and thus became imperfect. I say that is impossible. If he was perfect, he couldn't have chosen to be imperfect, because if he did, that would prove he was not perfect to begin with. No perfect being can choose to do that which is imperfect, i.e., sin. You need to realize that when you bring "perfection" in the door, you throw "free choice" out the window. The only choice he has is the right choice; that is why he has no option at all, and that's why your argument collapses. And that is also why the whole idea of a "perfect man" is ridiculous from the outset.
(To Be Continued)
LETTERS TO THE EDITOR
Letter #517 from GN of Phoenix, Arizona Dear Dennis.
I'm enclosing a Christian newsletter that came to my house edited and published by John A. Thought you would enjoy the contents along with my reply. Please note its caption: How to Beat the Atheist in a Debate. However, the article does not really tell you how to beat an atheist in debate; all it contains is a character assassination of atheist people. I would sure like to challenge this joker to debate YOU. If this is the best he can do, he wouldn't even be able to go one round. I found his comments to be insulting and humorous all at the same time. It's hard to imagine that an educated person could make such ludicrous statements. Evidently history is not one of his strong points.
What follows is the response GN sent to John A:
Dear Mr. A: ...I must take exception to the article about atheists. My mother and father were both atheists and never could there be found a more moral people. They were not moral because they were afraid of a punishing God; they were moral because it was in their heart to be so. They taught me not to lie, not to steal, to value truth, never to cheat, to be ambitious. My father was a hard worker and a loyal friend. My mother was a saint, and still is.
I think the article was quite misleading when you consider that our prisons are full of professed Christians. Possibly you are not aware of the part that Christians played during the Crusades and the Inquisition, all quite pious and all very immoral.
Insofar as morality is concerned I would pit my dear father against any of the biblical holy men. My father never murdered anyone such as David and Moses did; my Dad was faithful to his one and only wife and did not imitate the adultery and polygamy of both King David and Solomon. My Dad did not shack up with several women such as the patriarch Jacob, nor did he murder innocent men, women and children such as Judah and Levi, not did he sell his brother into slavery such as the sons of Israel. No, my friend, it is not the atheist who is immoral; it is very much the religious fanatics.
You mentioned the killing of 6 million Jews in the article. According to history, Hitler was a devout Catholic and the people of Germany were very much Christian, not atheist. If we look to the Bible for our ethics and morality we will come up short of civilized. What kind of morality and ethics is it when God's so called "chosen people" were commanded to enter Canaan and kill every man, woman, and child (genocide) and rob them of their land because they were not of the religion of the Jews? What kind of morality is it to stone men and women for adultery except when it is David and Bathsheba? What kind of morality is being taught when it is all right to kill and maim others in the name of God and religion? If Jimmy Swaggart had as many wives and concubines as Solomon, he would never have been tempted to immorality. How "righteous" was Lot when he was willing to offer his virgin daughters to be molested and raped by the wicked men of Sodom, and later, supposedly in a drunken stupor had relations with them causing their pregnancy? My atheist father had far higher standards than that. He would have died before handing my sister and me over to such a fate, and certainly, not even in a drunken stupor, would he have behaved indecently toward either one of us.
Yes, you are right, the atheist has his opinion to tell him what is right and wrong, and I'll be truthful with you, their morality far outshines the morality in holy writ.
I can only think of a few scriptures that contain any morality at all and they are in the New Testament. Jesus made some moral statements but they were no more moral than statements made by leaders of various pagan religions. Most religions teach you that it is wrong to steal, to murder, to lie, to cheat. However, among the moral statements of Jesus there are the immoral ones, such as "hating your mother and father," and encouraging his followers not to work but to let God clothe and feed them, not to mention his false prophecies about returning to those people who had put their trust in him. They are dead and gone and did not live to see his return as he promised.
It is quite egotistical to elevate the Christian philosophy. Our Christian nation was involved in two world wars and several immoral wars such as Korea and Vietnam. Our Christian immorality was further evidenced by the dropping of the atom bomb on innocent women and children in Japan. Christians were responsible for the slaughter of 6 million Jews. Our Christian nation is ravaged by AIDS, hungry and homeless children are on the increase daily, the mentally ill are wandering the streets, many of our veterans are homeless, our T.V.'s and movies are filled with filth and immorality, our politicians (most of them Christians) are corrupt and greedy for wealth and power, and our religious leaders are full of hypocrisy and lust after women and money.
Before writing another condemning article about a group of people that you know nothing about, I would suggest that you help get the "Christian" house in order.
Letter #518 from RM of Red Deer Alberta, Canada Dear Dennis. A christian couple I spoke to recently are no longer fundamentalists. They now have a more liberal paradigm. I believe that I am starting to get through to them, but they are not fully converted. Obviously, since they have been brainwashed for so many years, "deprogramming" them will take some time. The point is, I really do care for them. While I have a lot of fun disproving the bible's validity, genuine concern for the people I am reaching is, especially to them, an essential requirement. Every christian I have spoken to thus far has never been able to accuse me of insincerity. They have all assented to the integrity with which I present my arguments affirmatively.
At the same time, destroying false hope in the bible is a priority. The couple that is now becoming more liberal in their view, thanks to my personal efforts and some of the BE material, is a fine example. They quoted a host of scriptures to prove that God knew everything and predestined everything accordingly. That everyone has to go either to heaven or to hell, without having a say in the matter, was their sincere conviction.... Since no one can resist God's will (Rom. 9:18-19), man has no choice in the matter...and that's that.
In brief, they said that God is God from eternity to eternity (Ps. 90:2). According to His foreknowledge God Predestined all things according to His will.... No one can resist his will...and since God is omniscient...and is never given to change...there will be no exceptions where eternal salvation and damnation are concerned. Everything has been determined by God.
Well, I could hardly believe my luck. Here was my chance to blast both the bible and Calvinism at the same time. First, I pointed out that people have indeed resisted God in the bible. For example, Acts 7:51 says, "...ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye." Since they were already Trinitarians there was no need to cross-reference the OT to prove that the "Holy Ghost" referred to here is God.... In Luke 7:30, it states that, "...the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God for themselves.".... The point is that God's will is often resisted and He does not always get his way. The fun really begins when Jer. 3:7 is quoted because the will, the prophetic ability, and the omniscience of God all start to fall apart. As this verse states: "I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not.... Thus, Israel resisted God's command to "return" to Him.
Interestingly enough, most translations...reveal here God's ignorance about the future. As the RSV puts it: "I, God, thought after she had done all this she will return to me; but she did not return." Clearly, God thought wrong. This was shocking to the couple I was speaking to and they retreated to the KJV for safety. But I wasn't finished yet. Pointing to Jer. 3:19b-20 I demonstrated that even God admits to not knowing everything.... Horrors! There's more, still! God's omniscience is lacking in Gen. 18:21, 22:12, Deut. 8:2, 13:3, Hosea 6:4 and 2 Chron. 32:31. These verses are pointed out in BE, my favorite magazine.
At this point, all that was needed was an assault on the contradictory resurrection accounts and this couple, although not made into complete skeptics, made a strong turn away from fundamentalism and its inerrancy hogwash. Even if they are still clinging to christianity, I know they will never be quite the same as when they first locked horns with me and BE. While I have always (since leaving christianity) been able to win the argument with christians on my own, BE has made it all the more easy to win it quickly and completely. Thanks for all the support, Dennis. It's only a matter of time before many christians begin to "wake up and smell the Scriptures."
In every debate that I enter there is one verse that I bring up before, during, and after to drive home the point I am trying to make: "If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?" This is Psalm 11:3, and it is a good argument when one considers that the bible is the foundation of the christian faith. So, "if the bible be destroyed, what can the fundamentalists do?" Only two things: 1. Become a liberal or 2. Drop the subject completely. While (2) is the best option (1) is a good start. I intend, ultimately to push for number (2) where this couple is concerned. I think they're still in shock from the last meeting, but getting to number (1) is still a plus in my book. All the best to you and BE.
Editor's Response to Letter #518 Dear RM. Good job and keep it up. As I have said so often, we need far more people putting forth the same kind of effort. My only reservation lies in your use of Psalm 11:3 which, by implication, refers to believers as righteous. If there is anything millions of believers are not, it is righteous. Perverts and adulterers such as Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Bakker attest to that.